From settles@mppmu.mpg.de Tue Feb 27 09:04:30 2007 Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 09:04:10 +0100 (CET) From: Ronald Dean Settles To: A.F.Buzulutskov@inp.nsk.su, ack@mppmu.mpg.de, adrian.vogel@desy.de, alainb@physics.carleton.ca, anders.oskarsson@hep.lu.se, Andreas.Imhof@desy.de, araki@hep.phys.saga-u.ac.jp, ariane@mppmu.mpg.de, Astrid.Muennich@physik.rwth-aachen.de, bacala@msuiit.edu.ph, bamberg@physik.uni-freiburg.de, becker@lns.mit.edu, Bernhard.Ketzer@cern.ch, bjorn.lundberg@hep.lu.se, bolla@purdue.edu, bondar@inp.nsk.su, boudjeml@physics.carleton.ca, buchholz@hep.physik.uni-siegen.de, chefdevi@nikhef.nl, cizeron@lal.in2p3.fr, csimonet@e18.physik.tu-muenchen.de, david.attie@cea.fr, dburke@cea.fr, delagne@hep.saclay.cea.fr, dennis@physics.msuiit.edu.ph, desch@physik.uni-bonn.de, dpp@lepp.cornell.edu, DRNygren@lbl.gov, dz99@mails.tsinghua.edu.cn, eferrer@hep.saclay.cea.fr, evert.stenlund@hep.lu.se, felix.stoever@desy.de, fleck@hep.physik.uni-siegen.de, fujishima@hep.phys.saga-u.ac.jp, gaoyn@mail.tsinghua.edu.cn, ghodbane@mppmu.mpg.de, giganon@dapnia.cea.fr, hansen@uvic.ca, he-jb02@mail.tsinghua.edu.cn, henning.schroeder@physik.uni-rostock.de, hhwieman@lbl.gov, higashi@hep.phys.saga-u.ac.jp, hiroshi.yamaoka@kek.jp, Igor.Konorov@cern.ch, ioa@hep.saclay.cea.fr, jan.timmermans@nikhef.nl, jia-liu05@mail.tsinghua.edu.cn, Joachim.Mnich@cern.ch, jochen.kaminski@iekp.fzk.de, jpmartin@lps.umontreal.ca, jun@physics.msuiit.edu.ph, kadomatsu@hep.phys.saga-u.ac.jp, kaoukher@mail.desy.de, karlen@uvic.ca, katoy@hep.kindai.ac.jp, Katsumasa.Ikematsu@desy.de, keisuke.fujii@kek.jp, key-ichi@cc.tuat.ac.jp, killenberg@physik.rwth-aachen.de, Klaus Dehmelt , kriv@pnpi.spb.ru, krzysztof.komar@desy.de, kuroiwa@vbl.hiroshima-u.ac.jp, lai-yf@mail.tsinghua.edu.cn, lea.hallermann@desy.de, ledermann@iekp.fzk.de, leif.jonsson@hep.lu.se, lennart.osterman@hep.lu.se, lepeltier@lal.in2p3.fr, liuyinong@tsinghua.edu.cn, ljf26@lepp.cornell.edu, lotze@physik.rwth-aachen.de, Luciano.Musa@cern.ch, Lucie.Linssen@cern.ch, luqin99@mail.tsinghua.edu.cn, makoto.kobayashi.exp@kek.jp, Markus.Ball@desy.de, matthias.enno.janssen@desy.de, Michael.Hauschild@cern.ch, Michael.Weber@physik.rwth-aachen.de, Michael.Ziolkowski@uni-siegen.de, msd@physics.carleton.ca, nitoh@cc.tuat.ac.jp, oliver.schaefer@desy.de, Paul.Colas@cea.fr, pof@uvic.ca, ponyisi@lepp.cornell.edu, pouthas@ipno.in2p3.fr, pschade@mail.desy.de, qweitzel@e18.physik.tu-muenchen.de, rabrams@fnal.gov, ralf.diener@desy.de, renz@mail.desy.de, rickv@fnal.gov, rolf-dieter.heuer@desy.de, Ronald Dean Settles , rose@physics.msuiit.edu.ph, rosierph@ipno.in2p3.fr, rsg@lepp.cornell.edu, rulikowska@novell.ftj.agh.edu.pl, rwurth@mail.desy.de, sachio.komamiya@cern.ch, sachs@physics.carleton.ca, satoru@icepp.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp, serban@nipne.ro, shipsey@purdue.edu, sliu@physics.carleton.ca, smirnoff@star.physics.yale.edu, sneubert@e18.physik.tu-muenchen.de, sorina.popescu@cern.ch, spopescu@nipne.ro, Stefan.Roth@physik.rwth-aachen.de, Steffen.Kappler@cern.ch, Stephan.Paul@ph.tum.de, sugiyama@hep.phys.saga-u.ac.jp, takashi@map.kogakuin.ac.jp, takeshi.matsuda@kek.jp, tanaka@hep.phys.saga-u.ac.jp, Thomas.Muller@phys.uni-karlsruhe.de, ties.behnke@desy.de, Tina.Huber@gmx.net, titov@mail.desy.de, tohru-takahashi@hiroshima-u.ac.jp, ulf.mjornmark@hep.lu.se, uli.lynen@arcor.de, vdgraaf@nikhef.nl, vincent.hedberg@hep.lu.se, voe@mppmu.mpg.de, walkowiak@hep.physik.uni-siegen.de, werthenbach@deph.physik.uni-siegen.de, y4644114@gc.tuat.ac.jp, yamaguchi@asanolab.bk.tsukuba.ac.jp, yamamoto@hep.phys.saga-u.ac.jp, yiwang@mail.tsinghua.edu.cn, yueq@mail.tsinghua.edu.cn, yulanli@mail.tsinghua.edu.cn, zerguer@ipno.in2p3.fr Subject: WP meeting #22 summary: electronics discussion 20/02/2007 Dear friends, Leif's summary of the meeting is below, followed (after****) by introductory information distributed before the phonemeeting... Cheers, Ron WP electronics discussion 20/02/2007 -------------------------------------- Present: --Madhu Dixit --Sascha Kaukher --Leif Joensson --Jean-Pierre Martin --Dave Nygren --Anders Oskarsson --Dan Peterson --Ron Settles ...anyone forgotten? Leif's summary -------------------- 1. Jean-Pierre described the read-out system, which has been developed in Montreal and at Carleton. It is based on commercial FADC chips, running at 25-65 MHz, and FPGA's, which offer complete reprogramming. The physical size of the boards is at the moment not compatible with the pad sizes we are discussing for the prototype TPC but an effort has been started to reduce the size. The new version will use a new type of FADC^Òs with a sampling rate of 50 MHZ at a resolution of 12 bits. This system will possibly be run with the preamplifier being developed at CERN. 2. Further studies of the positioning of the read-out boards had been done in Lund and the drawings were presented by Anders. The conclusion is that up to 30 cm cable length is needed in order to accommodate the most extreme pad area geometries we can imagine. Luciano said that this is comparable with the situation in ALICE so it should be feasible. 3. Luciano informed that the submission of the second iteration of the preamplifier will occur in May such that the delivery can be expected at the end of the summer. The situation concerning the ALTRO chip is that we possibly may profit from the production to the STAR experiment. These chips will be tested in Lund and if the failure rate is low there may be enough chips to meet our needs. The chips are the 25 MHz version 4. Luciano explained that it is not necessary to adopt the full ALICE DAQ system for the TPC test set-up, but a down-scaled system could be used. It was decided to have this system as the primary option and that people interested to contribute should attend a tutorial at CERN 29-30 March. 5. Date for the next electronics meeting not yet fixed. The next regular WP meeting will be 28/02/2007. ******************************************************************** Preliminary Agenda ------------------- Below is introductory input distributed before the meeting. It is included here for completeness, to have all the information collected at one place. 1.Discussion about off-the-shelf components. a. Three emails from Jean-Pierre on 11Feb2007 contained 10(!) attachments. Here is his description: About "off the shelf components" readout systems: In 2003, we developped at UofMontreal a prototype 48 channels 10-bit 65 MS/sec digitizer/DSP card for the readout of the KOPIO pre-radiator chambers. The cards were to be mounted on the detector with a pitch corresponding to the chamber's connectors. (A case very similar to the LTPC). The readout was with a 200 MHz source synchronous serial link over copper (standard 4-pair CAT 6 cables). The link provided the master clock distribution, dataflow, run setup (parameters), and an integrated trigger system. (there are special collector modules to build up that architecture). For testing convenience, it was decided (for the prototype) to add some more PCB space around the dedicated high density readout area to make it a VME card. (The first tests would involve connections with cables anyway). The KOPIO project was shut down but the prototype module matured and was converted to a general purpose VME unit named the VF48 and fabricated in quantity ( we will reach 4000 channels soon). We have now 3 years of experience in running that system in physics experiments. We have also started to work on a prototype fitting more closely the LTPC requirements with the new generation of 12-bit 50MS/sec FADCs (the one with LVDS serial output at 600 MHz). We have two projects going on concurrently: At Carleton: a small 16-channel prototype with an USB interface to study the problems related to the readout of these new FADC chips with their 600 MHZ serial stream. Status: Firmware simulations and schematics completed. At Montreal: The VF64: a 64-channel version of the VF48 with these new FADCs. Status: Firmware simulations and schematics completed, partialy layed out. Waiting for the results from the 16 channel card before completing. I have attached various documents relating to this project. KOPIOCFEparis1.ppt : The slides presented at the Paris LCWS in 2004. PID90421.pdf : The description of the VF48 published in IEEE Transactions in Nuclear Science in 2006 and presented at the IEEE RT2005 conference in Stockholm. IMG_0216b.jpg : Photo of the actual VF48 card VF48-Reference v2.0.4a.pdf : Reference manual for the VF48 VF64-Reference v2.0.4.pdf : Preliminary specs and references for the UofM 64 channel card. Shengli_SchematicPx.pdf : Various schematics components from the 16 channel prototype design Collector_master.pdf : Block diagram of the top level Clock distribution/run and trigger logic. Collector_slave.pdf : Block diagram of the collector card in event builder configuration b. Another email from Jean-Pierre 19Feb2007 contained two more attachments. The mail: Hello All, I have attached two more figures for tomorrows phone meeting: blabla_arch.pdf shows the DAQ architecture we use for TIGRESS at TRIUMF. It is rather similar to that of ALICE, with of course a much smaller scope. If we replace the 10 channel 14-bit 100 MHZ cards with the VF48 cards, we can build with this architecture a system with 48 X 12 X 12 = 6912 channels. With the 64 channel card, this will become 9216 channels. The "slave collector" has the same function as the ALICE RCU mother board. It reads 12 modules of 64 channels, instead of 25 modules of 128 channels; It communicates to DAQ, Control system and Trigger system, as in ALICE, but on the same bi-directional ling, rather than on 3 separates links. It has also a parallel interface (64 bit) to VME. --The DAQ has been running reliably for close to two years now at the ISACII facility at TRIUMF. The second figure (blabla_protocol.pdf) show the logic of the effective bi-directionnal multisource-multidestinaltion 32-bit logical communication over metallic serial links at 200 MBit/sec, more or less similar to the ALICE DDL. The link also supports fixed latency "express" trigger bits. Note: The ALICE system is very nicely designed, well documented, compact, and can support huge data throughputs. It is realy "heavy artillery". If we can get our hands at all the components (modified ALTRO-FE cards, FE backplanes, RCU boards, DDL Cards, Receiver cards, network switches, etc, and ALICE software), this will be marvelous. If we can not reach that goal, the modest system I have developped for TRIUMF is still an option for a 10,000 channel or so experiment. And it also works... Regards, Jean-Pierre 2. Anders Oskarsson has continued studying different pad/connector topologies. Email from today: Dear Ron. I have put some new pictures at http://www.hep.lu.se/staff/oskarsson/ilc /Anders 3. Links to the Alice pages. There are 2 emails from Luciano (a. and b.) and one from Leif (c.) which overlap. For the discussion today, (c.) is probably most relevant, but I am leaving the two (a. and b.) from Luciano in for completeness since they contain additional information. The order a., b., c. is chronological. a. Email from Luciano to Leif on 30Jan2007: Subject: pinout of new PASA Dear Leif, find enclosed the pinout of the new PASA. -Concerning the ALICE Readout, you might find usefull the following documentation: Detector Data Link (DDL) http://ph-dep-aid.web.cern.ch/ph-dep-aid/ -RCU The ALICE TPC Readout Control Unit (pdf), Proceeding of the 2005 IEEE Nuclear Science Symposium and Medical Imaging Conference. Puerto Rico, October 23 - 29, 2005 http://ep-ed-alice-tpc.web.cern.ch/ep-ed-alice-tpc/papers.htm -RCU User Manual http://ep-ed-alice-tpc.web.cern.ch/ep-ed-alice-tpc/doc.htm Kind Regards, Luciano b.Second mail from Luciano to the Lund group on 14Feb2007: Subject: RE: missing items Dear Leif, -The schematics and layout of the actual version of the FEC are available at the following WEB page: http://ep-ed-alice-tpc.web.cern.ch/ep-ed-alice-tpc/fec.htm Tomorrow morning, I will make available also the Cadence and gerber files. -Concerning the RCU and RORC, we will need to produce a few boards. However, it is likely that we might provide, immediately, 1 RCU equipped with SIU and DCS, and 1 RORC, taken from the ALICE spares. I will verify this possibility and give you an answer by the end of this week. -Concerning the TTC system, it is a bit more complicate. The TCC modules were produced a few years ago on the basis of the request of the 4 LHC Experiments. I have to verify whether there is the availability of some spares (the complete chain). Anyway, I believe the TTC system is not mandatory for the LPTPC application. The RCU can get clock and Trigger signals from an auxiliary connector. -Concerning the software, Configuration, Slow Control and Monitoring, I would recommend that we use the packages developed for the ALICE TPC. That is something that can immediately be used by just redefining the mapping between electronics channels and pad plane. -Concerning Date, the best is if one of you comes to CERN for a tutorial session. This would be useful also to establish the contacts with the ALICE DAQ group. I will see with Pierre Vande Vyvre, the ALICE DAQ Project Leader, what would be the most convenient way. Kind Regards, Luciano c. Email from Leif to this group on 15Feb2007: Dear all, Please find below links to the information about the ALICE DAQ system which Luciano provided some time ago. -Detector Data Link (DDL) http://ph-dep-aid.web.cern.ch/ph-dep-aid/ -RCU The ALICE TPC Readout Control Unit (pdf), Proceeding of the 2005 IEEE Nuclear Science Symposium and Medical Imaging Conference. Puerto Rico, October 23 - 29, 2005 http://ep-ed-alice-tpc.web.cern.ch/ep-ed-alice-tpc/papers.htm -RCU User Manual http://ep-ed-alice-tpc.web.cern.ch/ep-ed-alice-tpc/doc.htm Best regards, Leif 4 .Discussion on the LP1 DAQ. Here was Leif's plan for the meeting: I hope that you have all got the links to the documentation of the ALICE DAQ system (see below). For me it is important to get a decision on what system we are going to use, possibly tomorrow, so please have a look at the documents to see whether you have any comments. To my mind this is the system where we could be reasonably confident to have something running at the end of this year. I also would like you to look into the information that Jean-Pierre sent around concerning the commercial system that they are working on in order to have a useful discussion on this.